Well, that's a bad sign. A good RTS interface shouldn't take a few games to figure it out. At least not for a veteran of RTS and TBS games.



I understood the empire tree as a 'building' instrument and it's definitely possible that it's good. BUT, I'm speaking about an 'information' instrument. In an RTS I need to know in a fraction of a second where all my units and buildings are, where my allies are and most important, if there are any enemies invading my territory. Further it's necessary to reach every point on the whole map with one mouse click. A mini map offers all that and even more. And since good information management is an essential part of strategy, this has nothing to do with click spam.
We'll see if Sins can offer all that too with their empire tree. I haven't forgotten Peter Molyneux 'we know everything better' approach with the digital desaster game Black & White.

Anyway, if the game gets at least an 8+ rating at gamespot, I consider it 'worth a look'.

Just wait for a demo Arkhan, and you'll have a chance to see. I have to admit, I don't think I understand how best to use the tree. I see how it functions as a building instrument, but it doesn't supplant the need for a mini map to determine the relative positions of different planets. Absent a large scale view somewhere in the HUD, I'm forced to keep zooming all the way out to see what's going on, which is distracting, awkward, and ultimately my biggest gripe. If I'm missing some component of how the interface works and there's a way around that, then that would be marvelous.

Ultimately I was expecting a game more like EU2 in space, and what I got is more like Homeworld on a large, 2D plane and without a good map tool.

I agree that SoaSE won't be for everyone, but as an ex-RTS addict it really is the best of both worlds.

The empire tree does a great job of giving you both the info you need(Health, Shields, and location of every ship and improvement)plus the ability to issue commands through it without losing focus on where your at. Your also always a double click away from going to any planet that you have forces at. Why didn't somebody think of this sooner?

Actually, that pretty much hits the nail on the head as to what I was expecting. Ah well, live and learn.

The lesson is, just because you love and adore the games of one genre that a company puts out, that doesn't mean you should blindly buy any game they publish (especially when its of a different genre and made by a different developer). In retrospect, that seems kind of stupidly obvious, but here we are. Like I said earlier, I'm inclined to consider it an additional $50 paid towards Gal Civ 2 and leave it at that.

For what it's worth, now that I've abandoned all of my expectations, I think it's slowly starting to grow on me. It helps to stop looking at screen shots. The fact is all those pretty graphics aren't visible at the zoom level you realistically have to play at.

Well, I'm not an RTS guy at all, they always have confused me. Here is what I mean. The basic UI is very simple. Click the research button to do research. Click the Pirate/Black Market button to do that stuff. Point and click and zoom. All simple. The Empire tree is a bit getting used to, never played a game with anything like it and it seems this is the first game ever with this concept.




Quite easy actually. Anytime an enemy invades a system you will see all the enemy ships and yours and your allies appear in the empire tree for that system. Expand and collapse as needed. I have quickly learned in this last game that it's much easier to issues fleet orders via the empire tree then to try to click the actual ships. Fleets are "pinned" on the empire tree so if I see their numbers dropping like flies and lots of them going red I know they are getting crushed. So I can simply click the fleet icon and issue the retreat order and they will do it. All the while perhaps I'm micromanaging a pirate raid in another system.



Just double-click any planet, structure or ship in the empire tree and you'll instantly go there. If you aren't sure where you need to go do a quick zoom out and zoom back down on the system in question. Any under attack will glow red and from the zoom out you see "bars" around the system that if you hover over it you'll see a listing of all of your ships in system as well as the enemy. So you can quickly determine if you need to even bother going there.

There are also tons of audio clues to what is going on. No matter where you are you'll get alerts like "sensors pick up an impending invasion" (make sure you research the sensor techs). Takes less then 5 seconds to zoom out, see where the forces are coming from and if you need to bother with it. As in, is it just a couple frigates and your defenses can handle it or is it a big fleet and you better get over there and do something about it.

Anyway, I didn't think I'd like this game at all and I've come to really like it. And I'm just playing single player mode. In my current game I've had a huge back and forth between my fleet and the AI fleet of over 100 ships each over 2 systems. It's a stalemate. So I'm going to research more fleet logistics and build a second smaller fleet to start raiding his worlds on the other side of the system to try to draw some of those forces away so I can finally crack that planet because if I can get a hold of it and hold on I'll have direct access to his inner systems. And this is on the Easy AI no less. Hopefully I'll get better and move up the ranks but I'm having fun even on easy.

Altough the empire tree sounds like a powerfull control and building tool, the necessity of zooming shows pretty clear that the interface is flawed. You don't have to zoom with a minimap.
But one minus point is usually not enough to justify the qualitity of the whole game. Sins got a good review at gamespy and almighty, and therefore the game is probably not that bad. It also stands out from the typical RTS games because the gameplay is more directed on longer TBS style games instead of 30 min quick fights.

Just player my first few hours, and I'm very impressed. The game looks to be deep, flashy, and way too addictive. I like how all the game's subsystems are rather simple individually, but managing your empire as a whole takes a lot of finesse. Still getting used to the empire tree . . . it should be a few games before I figure out what all those icons are for.

I especially like the RPG-lite element of your capital ships and how they gain experience. They're remind me of the heroes of Warcraft III, except for being giant spaceships and all. Very cool.

I have to say the lack of minimap isn't really bothering me. Given the way the phase lanes work, there should only be a few possible points where you could get attacked. As such you can focus your attention on the places that matter. Scrolling in and out isn't troublesome either . . . but then again, I'm used to it from Supreme Commander.

I didn't check back here and couldn't find out for sure from the SINS forums but yes indeed, you can do meaningful pausing (I bought the game due to reading about it, watching some footage, and the overall positive response). I think some other folks are like me and like meaningful pause functionality in RTS type games. It couldn't hurt for that to be more clear, even if the game is proving to be an initial hit.

The gameplay and interface are pretty slick to the point that I probably wouldn't pause as much once I get more familiar with the game, but it's definitely handy early on when you're learning.

Also nice to pause during those "oh crap" moments like when I thought my warfleet had easily sailing and was about to finish a planet off when a monstrous size enemy response fleet showed up...and at the same time pirates hit my main choke planet. Here I thought I had lots of ships. Doh. Seeing a capital ship explode is pretty spectacular (spectacularly sucky when it's YOUR cap).

I haven't had a chance to play it enough yet, but my initial impression is that it's a great game. Very slick interface, nice mesh of elements, tough strategic decision making, plenty of depth to research and growth, game elements very, very done well.

People who expected EU2 in space must be blind. The game is an extremely slow-paced RTS, it's not the pretend 'real time but not really' of the EU series. It isn't a spreadsheet - oh damn!

The UI is fine enough. Minimaps are basically useless for anything requiring detail (ie, beyond 'there is a blob of red guys here', and since the game is node-based (the gravity wells), the empire tree provides 100% access to everything at all times. You can see where all your ships, buildings, defences and factories are and access them at all times. Complaining about the UI when other RTS's (like, say, SupCom's micro-manufacturing UI) are far far worse is just nitpicking. Not like time is ever of the essence, since it's so slow-paced. I'm not sure how well it handles extremely large maps (say, 100 gravity wells), however.

Not having a nonsensical campaign full of stupid scripted events based on some programmers idea of excellent writing is a great idea. The game has a few AI and balance issues, but this is Stardock: they'll deal with it. My biggest concern is simply how long a game takes: the combat is very micro-low, but the slow pace means even a small 10-well game can take many hours.

I take it you've never played EU, I really can't imagine anyone confusing it with a "spreadsheet" game. It IS slow enough to be turn based, but then that's exactly what I was hoping for from Sins: a sort of real-time GC2. No dice, clearly, this is a "thrown a bunch of units at another bunch of units" type RTS instead. Considering it was advertised as "real time 4X" I think it's a good thing to warn people that it owes a lot more to Homeworld and Warcraft than it does to any 4X or turn based game. I didn't know that and I certainly wish someone had told me.



People keep comparing this to Supreme Commander, a game whose demo I played and quickly dismissed as unplayable dreck. If that's actually an apt comparison (and it may be) no wonder I can't get into it. I'm not here to debate if the UI is better than that of another game with a horrible UI, I'm here to say that it's not entirely functional and that it makes playing the game awkward. The empire tree, again, is a lovely idea but does not indicate relative position of gravity wells. This is a problem, as the result is that in order to assess the large scale situation in ones empire one needs to zoom all the way out. On larger maps this is profoundly prohibitive. Since there's no gameplay reason to ever zoom back in more than to the bare minimum necessary to place structures in wells, it also has the effect of making the game graphics completely pointless. You clearly like the game, that's fine, but keep in mind that I own the thing when you try to say overtly untrue things like "the empire tree provides 100% access to everything at all times." You can't tell me you're actually memorizing the names of planets and where they are so you can use the empire tree to full effect. I've seriously started sketching little maps to try to keep a handle on things when I play, but having to work so hard to overcome such an overt deficiency in the interface invariably just turns me off the game and sends me to something better designed.



I agree. I'm not sure, though, that not having a good campaign was a great idea. It sounded good when I thought there was a lot more to the game, but some context might do these skirmishes good as it turns out. Still, it's not a significant flaw in the face of everything else.

Ironically enough, I'd have let the whole thing go and shut up about it by now but for the fact that there's no way for me to sell the game I wasted $50 on due to SD registration (which I've never had issue with before, since I've always enjoyed everything else I've bought through that system). Consequently I feel the need to warn others to at least wait for the demo and make sure they're getting the game they think they're getting. I certainly didn't, and I wish someone had warned me before I blew money on this.

Well, in my own defense, perhaps a little more background is needed. I pre-ordered Sins ages ago, when it was first announced. At that point there was almost no information available about it, apart from some forum posts by the developers.

If I were making the decision whether or not to buy now, there'd be a lot more information available. But hey, I knew the gamble of pre-ordering, and no regrets.

I have played for quite a few hours now, and partly changed my mind. It's a neat game, and I've managed (through playing with options and whatnot) to resolve most of my earlier issues. I finally have a good feel for the rather unique interface, and it works reasonably well (though the lack of a minimap, or some means of determining WHERE things are, is still annoying). The main problems that remain all stem from one simple component of the design: the real time battles take place in the same timeline as the real time strategy. That is, while your ships are fighting, time is ticking by all across your empire. Got 3 battles going on? You can only watch and manage one of them. The AI's supposed to be pretty competent at handling fights for you, but I dislike being reliant on that. For that matter, the graphics are gorgeous and the battles are genuinely exciting, it kind of sucks that at best I can only watch one at a time and frequently I'm pulled away from that to handle managerial issues.

So for what it is, I'd say it's well done. It seems reasonably polished, the AI's not a dullard, the graphics and sounds are well done, and the large scale strategy has respectable depth. The capital ship level up system is neat and the battles are quite cool. The problem, at heart, is that the large scale strategy and the tactical battles conflict with, rather than complement, one another.

My final verdict is "wait for the demo." It's going to be a matter of personal taste whether you love or hate this thing, and you may have to play it for the better part of a couple of days to decide between the two. I did.

Definitely I will wait. I have too often bought games (MOO2) that turnrd out to be not my cup of tea.

Actually, I am pretty sure I will like the game based on what I read but my biggest reason to wait is my inability to focus on more than one or two games at a time. I recently dl SotS after trying the demo and I like the game but I find that it is diluting my attention to TA. Since TA is in beta this is not a real problem but I can not handle three games in my life.

A BTW question on Sins

Do the space battles require a lot of frenetic clicking? If so I will probably not care for the game. The RTS part is okay but I prefer a game where you set up the right conditions (numbers, weapons, etc) and let the battle play out without having to compete with computer agility in movement, fire and aiming.