Well now that you mention it, you see there is this group called the illuminati that controls the world

Hahaha, yes, and they all pass through the Skull and Bones Society first

The US a bully? We're not the ones murdering innocent civilians en masse in an effort to cow them to our point of view.

Indeed. I would forgo my US citizenship if that was the case.

If the Spanish did elect the Socialists because of wanting the truth and not because of the terrorists attack, then I could respect that, but changing parties because of the attacks would be cowardly on a scale that only the French can beat.

You are a victim of the media.
Far from being a hypocrite, I am a victim as well. Daily.
If you take the spin from media from sources such as the Washington Post, CNN, New York Times, USA Today, etc, you are looking at the perspective of the United States and her allies.
Spain was NEVER even close to supporting the United States. Her government ceded limited resources in order to retain favorable economic status with us. A small sacrifice, but one that never sat well with the populace.

The U.S. put the spin on Spain, so you would be antagonized and buy the paper or watch the television program.

Before we descend into another "U.S. vs. The World" debate, just a couple of comments:
First, pretty lame calling Spain a nation of cowards. It's that sort of insulting arrogance that gives so many a negative impression of the U.S. and it's citizens, and that same attitude from our leaders here in the U.S. has cost us alot of support that we could have had.
Second, is there a assumption being made that the election results in Spain were heavily influenced by the recent attack? I find that a bit of a stretch, though I am not up all the info from the election/opinion polls/etc. Is there any evidence showing a sudden "party switch" due to the attack? I find it more likely that the election would have turned out that way anyway, and now that the new administration has said it plans to bring their troops home (which I again guess it would have anyway, being the Socialist party), many Americans are pointing fingers at Spain and crying "traitor".
I think Spain is going the way it is not as a reaction to the terror attack against them but because what little "coalition" there was to begin with was fragile at best, thanks to the Bush administrations terrible foreign policy skills. Most if not all of the U.S. allies in the Iraq situation face highly negative public opinion in their countries---that is their people speaking (and now Spain's government changing because of it)---and it should be no surprise to the U.S. that they are not fully "on board" with our program.

I don't know if they are cowardly. I do know that the main premise for being against the ousting of Saddam Hussein was supposed concern for the people of Iraq. Now that Saddam is gone and they have the ability to rebuild their country, Spain wants to pull out to make a statement, abaondoning the Iraqis.

The US invaded, and now is spending billions of dollars and the lives of their personel to provide stability for the Iraqi people. We could have simply bombed them into oblivion and left. Spain joined in the initial overthrow, but now they back out to appease EU cronies.

At least the US is trying to keep its commitment to the Iraqi people. The Spanish have an election and discard their responsibility. All to make a point about pacifism? Human rights? Cowardly or hypocritical?

The Spanish, as a collective, have expressed their cowardice at the ballot box.

The first action of their new leaders does nothing except harm innocent Iraqi people and embolden the very terrorists who attacked them. Bullies prey on the weak. Spain can look forward now to more attacks I fear.

How long would it take the average American to find Spain on a world map? For that matter... what about the UK? Dont forget that European countries are much easier targets for Al Qaeda to get to than the USA - purely on geographical level. Its easy to get so pis*ed off with Spain for doing what most other countries in the world think we should have done a long time ago, when you are half way around the world from middle eastern hot-spots. Dont forget that Spain, the UK and many other European countries have been dealing with terrorism for many years now, and its something which is reletively new to the United states.

Something which I find difficult to understand, is the term "War on terror". How can you declare war on something which isnt actually anything? I if felt the need (and lets face it, these people really feel the need) to do something drastic, I could probably do it. Nothing on the scale of 9/11 but I could probably set fire to a building, or find out how to build a bomb... or what-ever. Its just very difficult to track such a hidden few down. The English have never been able to find the IRA's weapons, and its only really Ireland they needed to look in!

You say the war is over, but its not over! More coalition soldiers are killed every day. You say that the USA doesnt murder innocent civilians, but they do. Many many hundreds of completely and totally innocent civilians, like you and me, have been killed over the past 2 years by American weapons. Just because it was accidental, it doesnt mean its not murder in many families minds. These actions upset people. Some countries, dont want to be associated with such a "shoot-first ask question later" government, which is what America seems to be.

Cowardice is not the right word to use at all. Were the Americans cowards for pulling out of Vietnam? Of course not... They just realised they were not doing things the right way.

I think we all have to admit that this entire situation has not been dealt with in the best way. A lot of what has happened since 9/11 has gone exactly as Osama planned. The world is becoming more and more divided, and people, particularly Americans, just dont see it happening.

It is worth noting that Spain have said their troops WOULD stay under a UN led peace keeping force. Just not a US one.

The Spanish are not cowards. It's time people look at their point of view. The population were against a US led Iraq war. The population are for a war on terror though. Just separate the two issues.

I do agree that backing out on a commitment is bad, but it's not cowardice.
No a real coward would have kept the troops there against the wishes of the population for fear of the US economic backlash. I'm surprised no one has yet suggested boycotting Spanish products. That's usually the US response when they don't agree with another country using it's soveign right of self determination.

Paul.

Their population switched supporting the incumbant who supported the US to the challenger who is against the US after being attacked.

In other words, their population changed their collective position after faced with an attack to a position favored by the ones who attacked them.

That's not cowardice?

Ah, when the Spanish people do something based on what they feel is right it's "self determination". But when individual Americans do the exact same thing it's what? Bullying?  If Americans chose to boycott Spanish products would that not be Americans excercising their right of self determination?

A few random thoughts:

- The Spanish socialists have always been against the war in Iraq. They won the elctions and will fulfill their promise to get out of that war. Should they have changed their stance suddenly because of the bombs in Madrid? Would that NOT have been influencing the elections by AQ? Aside from their complete freedom to elect anyone they damn well please (something America should support instead of question), perhaps the Spanish people had very different reasons to vote for the socialist? Like for example the fact that Aznar and his Partido Popular were one of the most deceitful governements in recent democratic history? Their actions right after the bombings showed that clearer than ever and the voters kicked them for it. A thing to applaude, not something to condemn as cowardice.

- Perhaps American voters should pay more attention to things like this Link and ask themselves "will I allow myself to base any part of my opinion on what people like this say". Prime example: The invasion of Iraq has NOTHING to do with 9/11. AQ did NOT operate from Iraq, nor were there ties to Saddam. Just because George, Paul and Dick say so doesn't make it the truth. This is a belief widely shared in Europe, hell, all over the world outside the US. Ignoring that has been an American speciality lately, doesn't make it any less real though.

- George W Bush said shortly after 9/11: "Either you're with us or against us". It seems a good many of you have taken this to heart and have lost all ability to tolerate the fact that it IS possible that people disagree with you while still being your friends, not automatically your enemy. Democracy hinges on the ability of people with different beliefs to coexist peacefully while respecting eachother despite these differences. It si something AQ is unable to do, hence their attacks. Unfortunately, it also seems to be something America's leaders seem unable to do.

Brad, since when is Spain against the US?

The new Spanish government has stated that it hopes to maintain a close and cordial relationship with the US.

Please stop vilifying them.

As for population changing position, 90% of the population were against the Iraq war. THis hasn't changed. What changed was 48% support for the ruling party dropped to about 40%. This can be easily blamed on the way the leadership tried to blame ETA. Within 2 hours iof the blast the Spanish government had already informed it's ambassadors to blame ETA. Despite solid contradicting evidence and reports from police the government still tried to blame ETA. When it became clear that it was muslim linked they tried to suggest an ETA/Al Qaeda link. The Spanish people don't like being purposely misled. No wonder 8% of them changed their votes. That is NOT cowardice.

As for American's boycotting Spanish goods it's entirely their right. Never suggested otherwise. Just commented that I'm surprised they haven't already suggested it!

Paul.

So let me guess this straight? The US is trying to bring about democracy in Iraq. Spain is a democracy. As Baker puts it "The Spanish majority have hated the Iraqi war since the beginning, but they didn't get their way." In other words their Government was not representing them (as is supposed to be the case in a democracy) and so they threw the unrepresentative democracy out. And you don't like this. It's called democracy, something Americans claim to know something about. And anyone they said their troops will remain if authority is handed over to the UN, which let's face it, the US would actually like so they cut and run like they have in Afghanistan.

Let America boycott Spanish products. The rest of the world expects nothing less.

I love how in retrospect America is in Iraq to help bring democracy to the region. The national myths America have about itself are amazing.A t least Europe had to confront the bs that founded their national myths after world war 2 ... America just keeps creating new ones.

my fave is that they lost the Vietnam war because of peace protestors not getting behind the troops.

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic

bobo_fett : What do you think Spain will accomplish by pulling their troops out of Iraq? Do you think that it will make the situation for the Iraqi people better? On the one hand you say that protesters didn't have anything to do with the US failure in Vietnam, and on the other you say that Spain pulling out their troops is going to effect some sort of positive change? If not, what is the point in abandoning the Iraqi people?

Popular opinion was a good part of why Vietnam never worked out. We didn't have the public support to face the long-term commitment it was going to take to win the war, or the stomach to do what it would take to end it quickly. Not unlike our hestitance to crush North Korea when we had the chance, for which we are paying dearly now.

There was little hope the coming Democratic administrations would have followed through, much like a Kerry administration is poised to fail the Iraqi people. That is what quitting in the middle of an endeavor does for people. Spain doesn't seem to mind, though.